tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post7697508644067894443..comments2023-12-24T11:20:38.708+00:00Comments on The Muniment Room: How Did We Get Here (Part One)Ttonyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15185875893212146794noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-14034434241295516962014-09-28T10:16:33.350+01:002014-09-28T10:16:33.350+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.hasnain razahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11629194654437486724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-13341255937637360782014-03-26T12:05:21.155+00:002014-03-26T12:05:21.155+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15701573794779613425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-80244487627835847102014-02-26T15:52:53.218+00:002014-02-26T15:52:53.218+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ryan jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14175782550007924034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-58116998873633637642014-01-27T16:32:35.984+00:002014-01-27T16:32:35.984+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.bradmaddoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14839427415714509223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-63541164110717054782012-03-02T00:03:36.561+00:002012-03-02T00:03:36.561+00:00Dear Sadie
I hope you get to read my comment, it&...Dear Sadie<br /><br />I hope you get to read my comment, it's about a week late.<br /><br />I think I understand your premise re WWII. <br /><br />The Allied fought the war on behalf of the Freemasons, Jewish banking families.<br /><br />Not sure how Japan fits in. Though interesting comment re Nagasaki.<br /><br />The British occupation of Palestine led to the creation of Israel, enabling many Zionists to return and ended Christianity's reign in Jerusalem and thus the eventual re-building of the Temple for the Anti-Christ.<br /><br />The British lost their Empire, another death-blow to monarchism and a gain for republicanism, the child of the Masonic French Revolution.<br /><br />Regarding the recent conflicts in the Middle East. The Arabs have their own banking system and are at enmity with Israel.<br /><br />All so-called "hate crimes", racism, homophobia, whatever, even (hope it never happens), "thought" crimes, stem from the totalitarian Holocaust Laws. <br /><br />Communism (which occupied half of Europe) is the sister of Freemasonry.Damask Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903564104733536123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-8232664203041346652012-02-20T19:53:29.698+00:002012-02-20T19:53:29.698+00:00SV
That's what I thought you were getting at,...SV<br /><br />That's what I thought you were getting at, but you took a long time to confirm it.<br /><br />It is a thesis so at odds with most of our understanding that it requires a little elucidation if your intention is to educate us.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-58688475576293925212012-02-20T19:47:33.288+00:002012-02-20T19:47:33.288+00:00"The trouble I (and I suspect others) have is..."The trouble I (and I suspect others) have is the characterisation of Germany and Japan as not being aggressors."<br /><br />Then you (and I suspect others) will have no trouble with the on-going collapse of the Church.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-79035189484269780652012-02-20T18:32:48.808+00:002012-02-20T18:32:48.808+00:00SV
I am not sure anyone has the trouble you descr...SV<br /><br />I am not sure anyone has the trouble you describe. <br /><br />I for one am happy to consider the culpability of the UK and USA and others in the period between the wars - not least the punitive Treaty of Versailles at the end of the Great War.<br /><br />The trouble I (and I suspect others) have is the characterisation of Germany and Japan as not being aggressors.<br /><br />Perhaps you were over-stating your case for rhetorical effect? Or do you think all the blame lies on the side of their enemies?<br /><br />(PS Ttony -one of the words I have to type to prove I am not a robot is Chartres! Do you customise these?...)Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-41692344279616627072012-02-20T14:07:47.521+00:002012-02-20T14:07:47.521+00:00As long as you have trouble (your word not mine) i...As long as you have trouble (your word not mine) investigating the aggressive posturing of the British and American administrations towards Germany and Japan prior to WWII then you will see the Catholic church continue to disintegrate. It is not my thesis. Many outstanding intellectuals, particularly in the USA, foresaw the disasters which war would bring. Included in this group is at least one former American president, Herbert Hoover, who likened the USA pacific policies towards Japan as tantamount to “stepping on a rattle snake’s tale” (his words not mine). The same posturing continues today from the West towards Russia and China (the new enemies) via Middle-Eastern, African and Pacific Rim proxies all having as their inspiration the 1939-1945 paradigm. <br /><br />The Church cannot function in this irrational World and will continue along its path of irrelevance.<br /><br />The White Rose movement in Germany objected to a eugenics program which had already been in place during the Weimar Republic. This latter had enacted legislation hostile to the unborn and handicapped. This was further developed by the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei adminstration from 1932 onwards.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-63402615984322129372012-02-20T12:15:55.532+00:002012-02-20T12:15:55.532+00:00SV
That part of your thesis is interesting and d...SV <br /><br />That part of your thesis is interesting and discuss able.<br /><br />I still have trouble with theAnglo-Saxon countries being the aggressors and NOT (my emphasis) Germany and Japan.<br /><br />The White Rose and many others from withinNazi Germany certainly saw it differently, from within...Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-35485761079379741802012-02-20T08:37:24.071+00:002012-02-20T08:37:24.071+00:00I shall repeat:
My contention is that where the c...I shall repeat:<br /><br />My contention is that where the cult of WWII as a moral and necessary conflict persists, the Catholic Church will continue to collapse there too.<br /><br />This is what has happened. Ttony is blaming a few dodgy bishops for this collapse. I am drawing his attention to the West in general in particular the role of Anglo-Saxon nations in the build up to, during and after, the second World War.<br /><br />The collapse of the Church within a generation of this event was inevitable. Curiously, the Irish, Spanish and Portugese churches delayed their collapse because of their neutrality but there too the Anglo-Saxon vision has been exported. You only have to examine their economies and banking systems to see the 'debt' they owe the Anglo-Saxon vision!Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-52720195804667986942012-02-20T07:07:14.143+00:002012-02-20T07:07:14.143+00:00SV
That rather obvious point maybe did not need t...SV<br /><br />That rather obvious point maybe did not need to be made nearly as much as an explanation of your rather more, errr, debatable earlier one...Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-70105548767975266862012-02-19T23:42:52.919+00:002012-02-19T23:42:52.919+00:00"To say that the West were not the aggressors..."To say that the West were not the aggressors in 1939 does not imply either endorsement of the means used to prosecute that war, such as the A bombs, nor of all - or indeed anything - they have done since."<br /><br />Orders were given to bomb Libya without a vote in Congress nor the House of Commons. You endorsement was not required for either this or any future wars.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-41149410282980317062012-02-19T22:58:46.943+00:002012-02-19T22:58:46.943+00:00Overcome by SV;'s crushing logic, I will retir...Overcome by SV;'s crushing logic, I will retire to a corner and lick my wounds (self-inflicted, of course).<br /><br />To say that the West were not the aggressors in 1939 does not imply either endorsement of the means used to prosecute that war, such as the A bombs, nor of all - or indeed anything - they have done since. <br /><br />Get a grip SV. Either explain your remarkable thesis or accept that I will not be alone in thinking it ridiculous.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-48885838712390911792012-02-19T22:49:30.842+00:002012-02-19T22:49:30.842+00:00LF
How can one elaborate on these views in a blog...LF<br /><br />How can one elaborate on these views in a blog?<br /><br />All I shall say is that as long as the cult of war retains its grip in the West than the Catholic Church will continue its inexorable decline. Read Ben Tovato's lame attempt at humour to see how strong the grip is. <br /><br />For example, do Western Catholics really believe that the Allies could obliterate, in seconds, Nagasaki, the most Catholic city in all of Japan and not expect blowback? What sort of God would allow that to happen? No, the West got the bishops and the Council it deserved. <br /><br />More importantly, it will continue to get them. I shall leave it to Ben Tovato to explain the inherent stupidity of Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Libyans, Syrians, Iranians and how they get in the way of those Allied bombs ...Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-42304841627649404042012-02-19T22:04:19.042+00:002012-02-19T22:04:19.042+00:00Sadie Vacantist - You seem to say that "it wa...Sadie Vacantist - You seem to say that "it was the Anglo-Saxon countries and their allies who were the aggressors in 1939-1941 and not Germany and Japan".<br /><br />If I have understood you correctly, I too would greatly like to read your elaboration of this view, reminiscent of the Russian thesis that the Poles caused WW2 by behaving unreasonably towards peaceful Germany.Left-footerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154175028539882422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-1310219730324276022012-02-19T21:38:55.615+00:002012-02-19T21:38:55.615+00:00SV: I'll wait until you can point me to a full...SV: I'll wait until you can point me to a fuller exposition of your thesis before commenting further, but persuading me that the UK was the aggressor in 1939 will be a bit of a challenge for you.Ttonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185875893212146794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-25043088466069239842012-02-19T15:19:24.492+00:002012-02-19T15:19:24.492+00:00Ttony
"That said, though, I would speculate ...Ttony<br /><br />"That said, though, I would speculate that the way in which the Bishops of the defeated Western European countries (ie those defeated in 1940 as well as those defeated n 1943 and 1945) came to terms with the effects of WWII is decisive to understand how the dynamics of conciliar thinking came about."<br /><br />Now you ARE begining to say something of note but where is the logic? Worlock was, by your defintion, on the winning side in 1945 so why did he become a self-hating Catholic in the manner of the defeated countries? The Catholic Church imploded post-65 everywhere, winners and defeated alike. Why? Could it be that the popular understanding of WWII as a necessary and even moral crusade is false when closely examined? Your comment above suggests that you, by contrast, accept the popularly held view.<br /><br />That anyone who might oppose this analysis "loses" you is in itself indicative i.e. anyone who states that it was the Anglo-Saxon countries and their allies who were the aggressors in 1939-1941 and not Germany and Japan.<br /><br />My contention is that where the cult of WWII as a moral and necessary conflict persists, the Catholic Church will continue to collapse there too.<br /><br />The present conflict in Syria (and the planned one in Iran) is simply a continuation of the 1939-1945 paradigm. Therefore I see no improvement in the Church's fortunes in the short term with or without a "Worlock". Indeed, not even a great Pope could turn things around in the present context.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-20186861535352062572012-02-19T10:28:49.535+00:002012-02-19T10:28:49.535+00:00Sadie, you've lost me.
This post is one in a ...Sadie, you've lost me.<br /><br />This post is one in a series which explains how a small group of activists in the Catholic Church in England and Wales took over and rebuilt the administrative structures of the Episcopal Conference. It is NOT about the Council or about the post-war world.<br /><br />That said, though, I would speculate that the way in which the Bishops of the defeated Western European countries (ie those defeated in 1940 as well as those defeated n 1943 and 1945) came to terms with the effects of WWII is decisive to understand how the dynamics of conciliar thinking came about.Ttonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185875893212146794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-8364579252182028372012-02-18T22:01:24.571+00:002012-02-18T22:01:24.571+00:00The article (which I gave up on half way through) ...The article (which I gave up on half way through) contains the usual stuff about Worlock the manager etc. I'm sure it's all true but I've stopped believing in this sort of stuff years ago. History is not so much an academic discipline but more a racket.<br /><br />The big event back in 1962 was still WWII and its aftermath. If the author seriously thinks Derek Worlock is more important than WWII then he really is disturbed.<br /><br />Since 1945 the USA (and the West in general) have been in a state of permanent war fighting on behalf of a non-Christian entitity. The Catholic Church is simply a victim of this madness and the stupid Council didn't stand a chance.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-53698700415866898352012-02-09T10:08:46.284+00:002012-02-09T10:08:46.284+00:00A very warm welcome back!A very warm welcome back!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-88362494646278906472012-02-07T21:24:34.148+00:002012-02-07T21:24:34.148+00:00Fascinating! I can't wait to read the next in...Fascinating! I can't wait to read the next instalment.Idle Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07583960388335420573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-30280897808754261942012-02-07T12:10:32.296+00:002012-02-07T12:10:32.296+00:00Gramsci.Gramsci.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-22968002854924158972012-02-07T11:37:13.207+00:002012-02-07T11:37:13.207+00:00So glad you are back blogging. A real eye-opener f...So glad you are back blogging. A real eye-opener for me. I always felt in my bones that, in many ways, Hume was as much a wrong 'un as Worlock.Gentyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569143943867323153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37512247.post-780411047727047082012-02-06T21:30:35.124+00:002012-02-06T21:30:35.124+00:00A fine analysis, Ttony, from which I have learned ...A fine analysis, Ttony, from which I have learned a lot. Needless to say, great to have you back.<br /><br />God bless!Left-footerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18154175028539882422noreply@blogger.com